Audio file from http://www.zen.ie/audio.html
Above is a snap of Peter's blog where I got the sound file. It is an image, so the link does not work.
Transcribed
by Lauren Crane around July 2018.
Regarding
the transcription:
- · In the following SNS = sympathetic nervous system. PNS = parasympathetic nervous system. ANS = autonomic nervous system. ANSs = autonomic nervous systems [which are the SNS and PNS]… all are spoken out by Nishijima-roshi, I have abbreviated them for convenience.
- · I have attempted to capture some of the flavor of the natural flow of this conversation with various “ahs” “unns” and the like. Not all have been captured.
- · Nishijima-roshi often started speaking with “so da…” which, with my limited exposure to Japanese over many years, I take as a casual thought starter which might more formally be “so desu…”. I do not think it has literal meaning other than a gentle confirmation of what was said, or affirmation of what will be said.
- · I’ve installed some time stamps in brackets throughout so you can locate snips in the tape (sorry... my age is showing. I mean, of course, the sound file).
- · I’ve also installed some comments in brackets where I had trouble clearly understanding what was being said, or to note vocal effects such as chuckles.
- · Comments in braces {} are my impression of the meaning of what is happening on the tape that is not present as words.
Peter and Nishijima-roshi are discussing a story from chapter 20 in the first volume of the Nishijima-Cross translation of Shobogenzo titled "Kokyō - The Eternal Mirror". In particular this story...
"Great Master Seppō Shinkaku on one occasion preaches to the
assembly, “If you want to understand this matter, my concrete state is like
one face of the eternal mirror. [When] a foreigner comes, a foreigner appears.
[When] a Chinese person comes, a Chinese person appears.”
(the PDF files have been available here)
G:
Okay?
P: Ya
G: umm.
The story suggests the
difference between European civilization and Indian civilization.
And in European
civilization the two fundamental philosophies - idealism and materialism - are
the ehhh main um symbols, but in the Indian
philosophy, Guatama Buddha insists reality exists only, and therefore,
Buddhism insists that even though in European civilization people revered two philosophies
- idealism and materialism; but in Indian Buddhism they think that transcending
two philosophies – idealism and materialism; and should establish only one
realism, is Buddha’s saying.
So in such situation,
the Shobogenzo Chinese master utilizes the symbol of two mirrors. And when two
mirrors have met, two mirrors vanish, and reality exists in front of them, that
is the meaning of the story. [2:16]
P: So the mirrors are
symbols of ideas, of concepts.
G: ahhhh… yes ... so da … such mirror is the human intuition.
P: Right. When the two
mirrors meet… human intuition vanishes?
G: unh…so da…. vanish…
and reality manifests itself.
P: ….
G: So manifesting
reality, is the ultimate phase of Buddhist philosophy [2:52]
P: ohhh
G: Therefore, to
explain such situation, Chinese Buddhism utilized two piece of mirrors. [3:10]
P: um um …I see…so at
the beginning of the story the master Seppou Shinkaku says uh, if you want to
understand the matter … my concrete state is like one face of the eternal
mirror. When a foreigner comes, a foreigner appears. When a Chinese person
comes, a Chinese person appears.
What does that mean – “when
a Foreigner comes a Foreigner appears”?
G: mmm so da…it is the
story which symbolizes some kind of philosophical relations so da ….. Chinese master
utilizes mirror as the symbol of human intuition and uh…. Two masters have met….
Two masters idea vanishes and only one reality is maintained….
P: So when they meet face
to face, they are in reality, that’s the real…..
G: So this is the
process of explanation [?]…. So the real situation such kind of intuition
vanishes and there is just reality itself. [4:46]
P: This intuition, is
it something that we that we can kind of unders … is it something we can
understand ourselves and think about … or does it just happen… is it a very natural…
G: So intuition is
different from thinking, so da …we should explain such problem on the basis of
ANS, and when SNS is stronger, we are skillful to think. Therefore, in that
case, we are skillful to consider philosophical problems on the basis of
idealism, but when PNS is stronger the people usually be sensitive. In that
case, people think philosophical problems on the basis of material world.
[5:55]
So da…. we have
tendency that when our SNS is stronger we are prone to be spiritual, and if our
PNS is stronger, we are prone to be materialistic. So those two states are
different from Buddhist situation. In the Buddhist situation, SNS and PNS have
the equal strength. In that case, plus minus zero, then we can notice the existence
of reality. [6:54]
So European
philosophies and Buddhist philosophies should think about utilizing such [unclear
– something like “uh… simile”]. So in
Euorpean civilization, there is body and mind, but in Indian philosophy, our
ANSs are balanced…. so such is described “plus minus zero”, then we can grasp
reality directly. [7:41]
So practicing zazen is
making our ANS balanced, and then, we can grasp reality directly. So not consideration,
not perception, but just sitting, keeping the posture regularly, then we can
experience reality itself, directly. That is the practice of zazen. And therefore,
practice of zazen is the central importance in Buddhist philosophy. [8:26]
P: And what is the
relationship, then, between intuition and this balanced state?
G: Ah…so da… when ANS
balanced, function of autonomic…[correcting himself] function of SNS and
function of PNS become equal, so such situation is like plus minus zero, and
such situation of plus minus zero is just the basis of reality. [9:15]
Therefore by practicing
zazen, we can utilize practice of zazen, we can live in the reality. The
reality is situation of plus minus zero. [9:36]
P: I see. So this
situation of plus minus zero, is the same as the situation of reality, of the
universe.
G: Yes, yes, that’s it.
P: So we’re in plus
minus zero and reality is plus minus zero.
G: Yes, yes. [9:53]
P: And then where does
intuition come from? Is that, is that, part of reality [???] does that come
from inside each person?
G: Ah, so da…. reality
comes {“from” seems implied by not said} the equality between strength of SNS and
strength of PNS. [10:14]
P: That’s .. intuition
comes….
G: Yes,
P: They’re, they’re…
G: Yes. So intuition is
beyond consideration.
P: Right
G: Beyond sense
perception.
P: aha
G: ummm
P: And is it an
individual thing? Do individuals kind of generate their own intuition, or is it
a kind of a universal… ?
G: Ah..so… therefore
in European philosophy, we do not revere intuition, and sometimes we think that
intuition is very dangerous. Therefore, before deciding something, we should be
more considerable, but Buddhism insists different theory, and true decision
comes from our intuition, not from consideration, not from sense perception. [11:25]
When our ANSs are
balanced, then we can grasp the truth directly, intuitively. That is the theory
of Buddhism. Therefore, Buddhism revere the balanced state, and when our ANSs
are balanced, we can reflect the truth intuitively. [11:53]
P: …and we reflect the
truth intuitively… the truth exists in reality.
G: Yes.
P: I see.
G: so da…. the
universe is truth itself. [12:07]
P: Ah ha…
G: So if we … make
identify {perhaps he intended “identical”} our mental wave with the universal
wave, we can listen to the universal voice [light chuckle] {my impression is he
is amused by this analogy with radio signals}
[12:24]
P: ah ha… great…great…
When we do that, can we listen to it kind of consciously? Can we do it in our
men[tal]… do we get a mental … can we actually recognize it?
G: Ahhh yes…
therefore, sitting spine straight vertically, we are having balanced state of
ANS then the wave from the universe come into our body and mind.
P: ah… and where does
the wave from the universe… where does that originate.
G: It is fact. [13:02]
P: uh huh… it exists.
G: Universe has such
function.
P: I see. Is this… is
intuition… prajna… the word prajna… is that separate to the word dharma? You
know we talk about the universal law and universal rule. Is…
G: Therefore balanced
ANS is the wave of the universe. Therefore when human beings make their ANS
balanced, then they can listen to the broadcasting from the universe. [13:52]
P: right.. and the
broadcasting from the universe is truth, it’s reality.
G: Yes, yes.
P: well that’s very
good, thank you.
G: So the Buddhist
philosophy is not belief but philosophical fact. Therefore, I think all human
beings should study Buddhist philosophy. Buddhism can never be [unclear] but
philosophy itself. [14:25].
Because in the case of
Buddhism, that is nothing to believe in. The Buddhist theory is fact itself. Therefore,
we should not believe in anything. We should find the existence of Buddhism
itself. [14:55]
P: We believe in
reality.
G: Yes.
P: …like that…
G: Yes.
P: It’s not that… we
don’t believe in a particular idea, we believe in….
G: ah…We do not need
to believe any idea [15:12]
P: uh huh…
G: umm
P: I’m sorry.. one
last question.. how do the precepts relate to, you know, our intuition?
G: ah..so da…. when I want
to explain such situation, I usually use very wide pasture. And in the pasture,
ox and horse are playing very pleasantly. But if they over the fences, the
outside is very dangerous. Therefore, without getting out from the fence, is
very important condition to make ox and horses safe. [16:15]
P: right..
G: umm… so precept is
such kind of face… fence… therefore we should not get outside of the fence,
that is the precepts.
P: I see…. Occasionally
there are times when we have to act…sometimes we do something that goes against
the words of the precepts.
G: Ah yes…. Therefore,
in such case we should come back to the pasture hastily.
P: Hastily…
G: [chuckle] {of
amused confirmation}
P:And usually the
precepts and the truth in reality they should kind of be… they should … uh
conform to each other… they should be…
G: uhh… Precepts is
first step. And first having the precepts, but it is rather difficult to follow
the precepts. So we make our effort and gradually we will get ability to follow
the precepts.
P: I see…
G: So precepts is the
first fess… fence…
P: yes…
G: umm. And breaking
the precepts is common for human beings. Therefore, we should make our effort
to follow the… play… inside the fences. Then we can have freedom, even though
we are living on the earth. [18:08]
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